EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH NORMAN FINKELSTEIN

Dr. Norman Finkelstein: Never shy when it comes to bringing the truth into broad daylight.

Norman Finkelstein (born December 8, 1953) is an American political scientist and author whose primary fields of research are the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the politics of the Holocaust. He is one of the more "controversial" figures on the left, largely because he refuses to "play nice" -- just as raw war footage from Vietnam delivered a not-so-short, sharp, shock to middle America, Dr. Finkelstein takes the same approach to the issues he writes and speaks about. He is a staunch advocate for a sovereign Palestinian state free from any interference by Israel. During the Second World War, both of Dr. Finkelstein's parents were interned in Nazi concentration camps and he takes vehement exception to anyone he perceives as trying to exploit the holocaust for personal gain. Finkelstein travels extensively giving lectures, primarily on university campuses. He has written several books, including "This Time We Went Too Far: Truth and Consequences of the Gaza Invasion"(2010) and "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering"(2000).


AZ: Some years back (October 15, 2001), in an interview with Don Atapattu, published as "How to Lose Friends and Alienate People," you said the following (according to the transcript that appeared on the Internet) in response to a question about elevating the image of Arabs and Muslims in the U.S.: "Nowadays nothing is possible with the events of September 11, a lot of hard work over many years to try to build a counter consensus disappeared in the rubble of the World Trade Center. I am utterly pessimistic about the prospects now, but I did not think it was impossible (before)." The 10th anniversary of 9/11 is upon us: Are prospects for improving the aforementioned image, and of helping the Palestinians achieve genuine sovereignty and freedom, still so grim?


NF: I overestimated the negative fallout of 11 September on popular movements and underestimated the clear thinking of most people. Already on the eve of the attack on Iraq in March 2003 there were massive antiwar demonstrations in the U.S. despite the orchestrated hysteria about Middle East terrorism. I do not think the War on Terror is any longer a serious distorting factor in public debate on the Israel-Palestine conflict.


AZ: You've also talked about America getting its comeuppance: That our government has maliciously interfered in so many countries around the world that 9/11 was not only evidence of this, but that there would be more to come. Certainly, as far as I can deduce, resentment continues to grow against the U.S. around the globe. From what you know, is this still evolving in militant ways that will see more backlash for the U.S., specifically on U.S. soil?


NF: I don't know anything more than the general public on the likelihood of future terrorist attacks directed at the U.S. But I am struck by how few terrorist attacks there have been. Everyone who rides the New York City subway knows how easy it is to commit a horrendous terror attack and how impossible it is to prevent by body searches, etc. Yet, it's not happened. My conclusion is that the terrorism threat is greatly overblown.


AZ: Is the key to unlocking the door of getting the U.S. out of Iraq and Afghanistan, helping Palestine achieve true sovereignty, restoring power to the U.N. in a way that it isn't emasculated by the U.S., rehabilitating the image of Arabs and Muslims in this country and so on, is the key to first democratize the U.S. mass media, to some extent, in some way, or, alternatively, giving more muscle to the genuinely alternative media like Democracy Now, Z Net, etc.?


NF: There is no single key. Our society seems headed in a very bad direction because the scale of the problems we are now confronting--particularly in the environment--are so much bigger and more potentially damaging, yet nothing serious is being done to address them. Quite the contrary, significant segments of our society are either in denial or just don't care: apres moi, le deluge. I myself worry more and more about what I eat. The new cuts in federal spending will hit hard the regulatory agencies. Right now about 30,000 people die each year from food poisoning. How many more people will have to die before people become convinced that federal regulation isn't such a bad idea, after all?


AZ: Just how critical is it that people be educated in the notion that "U.S." (in political terms) is not the same as "people of the U.S." and that "Israel" (in political terms) is not the same as "people of Israel"? After all, millions in the United States are quite radicalized, and many Jews are very much against the way their government conducts its affairs. Furthermore, how would this education best be achieved in the U.S. and, from there, evolved into action?


NF: Most people are decent; most would not want to inflict suffering gratuitously on other; most can be convinced that sharing wealth isn't a terrible idea. But if you look at poll data, there are also reasons to be pessimistic: over 90 percent of Israelis supported the Israeli aggressions against Lebanon in 2006, against Gaza in 2008-9, and against the Freedom Flotilla in 2010. So, depending on where you look and what you count, you reach different conclusions about how representative governments are of the people.


AZ: Obviously, on any issue, there are a great many things that people can do to aid progress. What would be the most effective thing/s that folks in the U.S. could do to aid the cause of Palestinian sovereignty and peace between Israel and Palestine?


NF: Right now the most important task is education. People are unfortunately ignorant of the basic facts, although more and more people are becoming better and better informed. Judging from poll results, about half the American people have a pretty clear idea that Israel is not up to any good, but most Americans still have a very negative image of Palestinians.


AZ: My specific area of interest is in doing my small part to help unify the single-issue groups of the true Left (generally, but not necessarily, beyond what tend to be called "progressives") so that a synergy might be created to fight for broader, institutional change. Give me your best piece of advice for this.


NF: My best advice is: Try to be consistent in who you are as a public and private person. It's the only way to win people's trust, and without bonds of trust there can be no progressive politics.

The award-winning documentary: "American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein."

My sincere thanks to Dr. Finkelstein for his time.

Take care,
Adrian

IF YOU FOUND THIS BLOG POST INTERESTING you might also like to take a look at NO WAY TO HONOR DR. KING by Medea Benjamin.

THIS IS WHY I WRITE THIS BLOG

Quite frequently, I get comments from readers of this blog. Most are very supportive, some express disagreement, others are incredibly hostile. I publish them all -- unless I consider them a bit too profane -- because I believe in debate, free speech, and competing opinions. Last week, a young man sent a comment and I found myself answering at length. When I was done, I felt that the exchange said a lot about where I'm coming from and why I write this blog -- which is useful in that it gives a larger, yet personal, context to what I'm doing and trying to do. So I decided to publish the whole exchange. I've removed the chap's name in case he wouldn't want it used in this way.


THE COMMENT

[NAME REMOVED] has left a new comment on your post "GUNNING FOR NORTH KOREA":

I have noticed how fashionable it is to attribute atrocities to the United States, especially amongst your generation. The revisionist histories that purport to show America as the great monster of the Cold War -- in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Africa -- are all very troubling for their revelation of how undemocratic and hypocritical our foreign policy CAN be in times of national paranoia, but, while indeed I wholly approve of empirical criticism, I am troubled even more by your rhetoric, which seems actuated more by a desire to traduce America than to improve it. (It is also notable -- and provable with Google's Ngram -- that 'US,' the term for America that you use almost exclusively, became the more popular term for America in the late 60's or early 70's, at the height of exactly the sort of anti-Americanism you express. I can only conjecture that it is because 'US' reduces us to a political rather than cultural entity.)

In any case, although your points are not particularly original, I still generally agree with your message: America is not perfect. What bothers me is that you should single America out. As a college student at least two generations your junior, I can say that your anti-American rhetoric peaked around a decade ago, and that the inheritors of America have not inherited your habit of seeing us as a villain. This, too, can be found by entering relevant terms into Ngram, such as 'multicultural' or 'international.' Now, I believe, younger people are realizing that, for all our faults, we still are better than filthy and essentially third-world countries like China that handle 21st-century technologies with 19th-century attitudes. With the fast approaching extinction of your rebellious and irreverent generation, America may at last realize that the narrow-minded self-loathing your generation embodies only blinds us to the even greater evils in Asia.


MY RESPONSE

Firstly, thanks for your comment, which obviously took time and effort, and for putting your name to it. I admire that.

Let me preface my response by saying that I do not single America out, "it" (the power-mongers) has singled itself out. I am only commenting on what I see; although I am not saying that the U.S. is the only tyranny on the planet. I've never said that. But the U.S. is the most powerful and influential tyranny by far. Nor am I limiting my observations to the Cold War, which, for some reason, you used for context.

I disagree with you completely and put it to you that you are arguing from a totally false premise: This is not a generational thing at all; it cuts across generations. In fact, I would assert that folks with your line of thinking, or thereabouts, are in the minority in your own generation. You only have to look at alternative media, visit college campuses, hear what people are saying on buses and trains, look at protest actions, read message boards on news websites, check out blogs, look at the activist non-profits powered largely by younger people, sniff around Facebook, and on and on, and you can see that, if anything, society in general has become much more radical in its thinking. Not progressive, radical. In the sixties, you could argue, there was much more of a generational divide. But there isn’t now. And to suggest that the younger generations are somehow conservative and waiting for the old "hippies" to die off and let them be, just flies in the face of all logic and observation. Unless a person glues their eyes to Fox and CNN 24 hours a day, they simply MUST know that the tide has turned in favor of social change.

There is nothing at all fashionable about attributing atrocities to the United States. As a former right winger who would have made you shudder, (I was about as far from being a "flower child lefty" as one could get), I can tell you that people like me do things from conscience and observation. That is why I have come to the path I’m on. And that is why I talk about U.S. atrocities: because they happened and are documented, and because the U.S. is the most powerful nation on earth and has interfered in more countries than any other nation-state in history -- by far.

But of these atrocities, which of them do you want to erase to prop up your world view and give the U.S. a pass mark as a not-so-bad bully? The massive bombings of Germany when WWII was already won, which slaughtered countless civilians? The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki when the Japanese wanted to surrender, and then were actually in the process of surrendering? Nixon’s savagery from the air in Vietnam? Our support of sadistic regimes throughout Latin America? Our invasion of Cuba? Our pathetic bravado in Grenada? Our torturing of all manner of people in any number of places? We could talk about Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans, the conquering of the Philippines and Hawaii, COINTELPRO, supporting Indonesia while it carried out genocide, etc etc… how many examples does one need? War crime after war crime. Plunder after plunder. Cruelty piled on cruelty.

My father fought in WWII (and was in the peacekeeping forces in Hiroshima where he saw a city that was “completely flat”) and Korea (where he earned the Purple Heart). I was a good listener. I followed up on that by reading, asking questions, being skeptical. I grew up with the Vietnam War on television EVERY NIGHT. So I read about that, and asked questions, and was skeptical. I also grew up in a part of my city that took thousands of Vietnamese refugees into urban camps after the Vietnam War then integrated them into our neighborhoods at a time when there was no abundance of jobs and not enough hospital beds. I questioned this vehemently. But in time I learned the truth and why these people had “moved in.”

It is not a crime that you are young. It’s not even a misdemeanor that you are ignorant. At your age I was very ignorant and very angry. Much worse than you. But there is little excuse, in this day and age, when enough of the truth has made its way into the public realm, that you have not educated yourself better. That is your responsibility. You have a good brain. The world needs it. But it needs it thinking compassionately and clearly, not flexing itself with juvenile pontifications like you just swallowed a dictionary and it went down the wrong way.

On another note, if my “points are not very original,” there is a good reason for that: most of my points are truisms that bear repeating, not the shining revelations of a latter-day prophet. I never claimed to be such. I do not create American history, I just help amplify it -- as it really is. There are things that many of us feel compelled to repeat, to re-express, to keep in the arena of public discourse. Is this irksome to you? Why? I’ll bet your own life is riddled with repetitions much more frivolous than the recounting of crimes against humanity. Consider what you are about to say before you say it, my friend.

As for the Ngram thing, there are many variables in play there. For one example: If the Establishment decides it needs to make a word “dirty” because it’s too close to the truth and threatens their charade of truth, then there’s a good chance a lot of people will stop using that word because the perception of it has changed in the public arena. That’s what our mass media gives us: A glorious propaganda machine that shapes the discourse. Ngram may be a tool of some use in some ways, but don’t lean too heavily on any one lever. Context, patterns, trends: that is where knowledge really exists. And in solid, primary references – documents – of which there is no shortage, supporting the stuff I say in this blog.

When you say that I have a desire to “traduce America more than improve it,” which “America” are you speaking of? If you mean the corporate and political elites who are ruining life for the vast majority, hell, I don’t wish to traduce, I wish to throw them out of their ivory towers! But if you mean the land, the people, and the potential and beauty of America (and don’t get hung up on the U.S. thing, for goodness sakes), then I love this country as much as anyone. This is the country my 8-year-old son and HIS generation will inherit, IF it’s still here. And THAT is a VERY serious thing to me and nothing to do with rhetoric or games. I have hobbies and interests I would much rather spend my time on than typing up a blog after working as a professional writer/editor 10 or 11 hours a day.

Yes, I slam the elites of the U.S., and yes, I am angry about the injustices that I see them inflict both here and abroad. Guilty as charged and proud of it. You should be angry too, if you really love America. The true America.

And I feel pretty sure you do.

Take care,
Adrian

IF YOU FOUND THIS BLOG POST INTERESTING you might like to take a look at A DIFFERENT KIND OF CANDIDATE...REALLY!

WHERE IS HENRY DAVID THOREAU WHEN YOU NEED HIM?

The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)


This blog entry kind of follows on from my last and, yes, I still have some Part 2s to write. Yikes!

Also, I do admit this current topic is more than a pet peeve of mine and I've been arguing it with people for years. Onward!

Here's a radical concept for you: Not all rules are good rules; not all laws are good laws. Disobedience and deviance from the norm are often essential to human progress. And humane progress.

Making the world a better place -- which is what this humble blog is devoted to -- often involves enduring inconvenience, sacrifice, insults, threats, misunderstanding, incarceration, being seen as a nut/troublemaker/malcontent, a sense of isolation, despair, self deprivation, self criticism, being ostracized and... well, you get the picture.

But there is also nothing more fulfilling than having the courage of your convictions, especially if it will benefit others now or in the future. It brings a certain inner peace with it amidst any turmoil that may have resulted.

Here is a point that is very close to my own heart and experience and, to be honest, I need to get it off my freakin' underdeveloped chest: The world would perish without rebels and "troublemakers."

There is a fairly simple way to prove this.

I have known some people who were VERY conservative in how they lived their lives. I mean the types who would put getting a fat 401K ahead of any risk taking or real self-actualization -- ahead of, in essence, really living. (It's that fear thing again.) Now, I know the arguments and what I say may not apply equally to all people.

But these play-it-safe folks always have the same dull drumbeat: You need a secure job to live. Well, there is some commonsense to that -- especially if you leave it in that narrow context. And to "normal society," it doesn't matter if you are, say, a crooked lawyer or bomb designer: If you have a nice suit and decent bank balance, you're a "respectable citizen." Now, even if you take much more harmless jobs, decent jobs, POSITIVE jobs -- nurse, fireman, charity worker -- they ALL have one thing in common: Today's jobs (and everything else) exist because people who lived before us took risks.

You know, crazy, unorthodox, nutty people like artists and writers; scientists and astronomers; inventors and "insane" theorists. People who were often total outsiders in their time.

Let's break it right down. Leonardo Da Vinci was one of the great geniuses of history. A brilliant mind. An extraordinary artist, anatomist, designer, botanist, cartographer, engineer ... the list goes on and on. There weren't many guys in his day who were designing helicopters [see above illustration]. Think about the awesome creativity of that!

Still, if they'd had 401Ks in the 15th century, I'm sure there would have been friends and neighbors tsk tsking Leonardo and telling him to give up the airy-fairy nonsense and plan for his future.

But Da Vinci WAS the future. Without his "crazy ideas" and solitary courage, progress in the arts and sciences would not have moved nearly as quickly as it did.

My point? It is the creative minds and the courageous outsiders who are responsible for all the choices we have today. Without those minds, modern history would have ground to a hideous halt and you'd probably have a choice between plowing a field behind a team of oxen, or staying home in the cabin to bake bread in a stone oven.

And black Americans would still be lynched as a matter of course, and women would not have the vote, and we'd probably still be in Vietnam.

Our options and our true human rights were bought and paid for by the rule breakers and law breakers who went before us. And they're still out there doing our dirty work. The renowned ones and the anonymous ones. Maybe we should, at the very least, welcome them in from the cold.

Some of the finest people I have ever encountered have been arrested numerous times. There are many of them. Here are four: Noam Chomsky, the late Howard Zinn, the Reverend Dan Berrigan, and Norman Solomon. And you'd be crazy if you called any of them less than respectable, peace-loving, selfless members of our society.

Look these people up. You'll see for yourself. They are all pacifists. They are all the kindest of the kind, and the smartest of the smart. And, yes, they have all been locked up for "breaking the law."

Here's another radical idea: "Making a living" involves many dimensions. In the 21st century the phrase immediately brings to mind the idea of going to your job every day and feeding your family. Fair enough. In my mind, making a living is also about enriching oneself. Looking at the interesting ideas of others. Developing my soul and my mind. And being resourceful enough that I don't have to cling to one job like it's my only lifeline. To me, making a living is not just about income or accruing tangible assets.

That gives me a real security that money can't buy. And it has carried me through some very hard times. It has worked!

Many of us live pretty well and we have good times. But we are creatures of infinite potential and we should not let that be overly restricted by convention. Now, here is another key point: You can make a living for your soul without sacrificing a decent income. These things are not (necessarily) mutually exclusive! You don't have to go broke to stage your own little rebellions of the mind and soul. Free yourself up!

Don't just "think outside the box" (if I ever find the dude who authored that phrase I'm going to smear him with honey and tie him to an ant bed). Why? Because we shouldn't have boxes in the first place. We are over regimented. Over directed. Over conventionalized. Our creativity and our sense of conscientious objection have been muted by mundanity, fear and habit. Suppressed. By people who don't want us to think too creatively and maybe start coming up with alternative ways to behave rather than sticking to the behaviors that make them rich.

Idea: Bunjy jumping isn't risk taking unless you try putting some little cuts in the cable first. Risk taking is FREEING YOUR POTENTIAL. And not in some dumb-ass self-help book kind of way. For goodness sake, you can invent your own life!

Next time you take a "safe" career path or settle into a job that's limited to 40 hours per week, or assert your rights as a minority or take a dissenting view at a political rally, just remember that it was people who didn't take the comfortable route who gave you that option -- or the option to go in another direction. And it is this same kind of people who will lead our real economic, altruistic and environmental progress to a better world.

All of my life I've been considered a "rebel" to some extent, which I feel is rather silly. I haven't even been arrested yet! It doesn't take much to get the label. I mean, I'm hardly building a fortified compound. I just don't choose to live a life of quiet desperation, as Thoreau so eloquently put it. I prefer the road less traveled. It's more rewarding. More interesting. Hard at times, but life's like that sometimes anyway. Right?

And being a "rebel" got me from a lousy high school education in the tough western suburbs of Sydney, to conversations and interviews with some of the most brilliant and creative minds around. And you can do it to. In your own way. What's your "crazy" dream?

Remember: Jesus Christ was a law breaker. Crucified. Gandhi was a resister. Assassinated. Martin Luther King Jr. rejected the laws of segregation. Assassinated. John Brown was an abolitionist without peer. Hanged, 1859. And Emily Davison, became the most famous suffragette of them all. Accidentally killed during protest action, 1913.

They didn't take the easy road. They followed their conscience. They all had plenty of enemies and rebuked the laws of their day. But really their only "crime" was that they blazed trails. Today we see them as they really were. And we accept them. We even canonize them. We understand their actions as legitimate and right, and their "lawful" persecutors as wrong.

So blaze your own trail. And make it a good one. Take others into account. Help them see what it is you're doing.

Even if you have to put up with being called crazy and advised to get a job with a good 401K. Leonardo would be proud of ya!

Take care, and take care of someone else,
Adrian Zupp
PS: Don't worry: I will definitely be talking about Thoreau at some point soon. How could I not?

Aung San Suu Kyi - matching words with action

From Amnesty International;

Leaders worldwide condemned Myanmar's decision last week to extend Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's imprisonment by 18 months after finding her guilty of violating the terms of her house arrest.

It's time for global leaders to match words with actions.

While Amnesty applauds the Association of Southeast Asian Nations' condemnation of the verdict in Aung San Suu Kyi's trial, the 10-nation ASEAN bloc must ratchet up pressure for the release of Suu Kyi and thousands of other political prisoners in Myanmar.

The head of the Myanmar's ruling military junta, Than Shwe, has brushed off criticisms before, and there's little reason to believe he'll clean-up his act unless ASEAN shows that this time it means business.

That's why we're calling on ASEAN to convene a meeting of the top brass in foreign affairs from all 10 member nations to come up with concrete measures to finally address the growing human rights crisis in Myanmar.


General Than Shwe

We're turning up the heat ourselves by calling on supporters to send 10,000 postcards – instead of emails – to the Thai government, which currently chairs ASEAN. (Don't worry – we'll send the postcard for you, so you don't have to buy postage, lick stamps or find a mailbox.)

Send a postcard today demanding the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and thousands of other political prisoners in Myanmar. Time is running out. Vietnam will replace Thailand as chair of ASEAN at the end of next month. Critics have raised concerns that ASEAN's new human rights body will be toothless under Vietnam's leadership.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/98b8a476-7548-11de-9ed5-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

We must ramp up our calls on Thailand to show leadership on human rights in Myanmar in order for it to make a difference in the remaining weeks of its chairmanship.

Act now. Help us send 10,000 postcards to the Thai government by September 1st to urge them to call for the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and thousands of other political prisoners in Myanmar.

Paste this link into your browser to send a postcard.

http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/site/c.jhKPIXPCIoE/b.5380275/k.7928/Free_Aung_San_Suu_Kyi/apps/ka/ct/contactus.asp?c=jhKPIXPCIoE&b=5380275&ICID=I0908A02&tr=y&auid=5207238

Aung San Suu Kyi - matching words with action

From Amnesty International;

Leaders worldwide condemned Myanmar's decision last week to extend Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's imprisonment by 18 months after finding her guilty of violating the terms of her house arrest.

It's time for global leaders to match words with actions.

While Amnesty applauds the Association of Southeast Asian Nations' condemnation of the verdict in Aung San Suu Kyi's trial, the 10-nation ASEAN bloc must ratchet up pressure for the release of Suu Kyi and thousands of other political prisoners in Myanmar.

The head of the Myanmar's ruling military junta, Than Shwe, has brushed off criticisms before, and there's little reason to believe he'll clean-up his act unless ASEAN shows that this time it means business.

That's why we're calling on ASEAN to convene a meeting of the top brass in foreign affairs from all 10 member nations to come up with concrete measures to finally address the growing human rights crisis in Myanmar.


General Than Shwe

We're turning up the heat ourselves by calling on supporters to send 10,000 postcards – instead of emails – to the Thai government, which currently chairs ASEAN. (Don't worry – we'll send the postcard for you, so you don't have to buy postage, lick stamps or find a mailbox.)

Send a postcard today demanding the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and thousands of other political prisoners in Myanmar. Time is running out. Vietnam will replace Thailand as chair of ASEAN at the end of next month. Critics have raised concerns that ASEAN's new human rights body will be toothless under Vietnam's leadership.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/98b8a476-7548-11de-9ed5-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

We must ramp up our calls on Thailand to show leadership on human rights in Myanmar in order for it to make a difference in the remaining weeks of its chairmanship.

Act now. Help us send 10,000 postcards to the Thai government by September 1st to urge them to call for the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and thousands of other political prisoners in Myanmar.

Paste this link into your browser to send a postcard.

http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/site/c.jhKPIXPCIoE/b.5380275/k.7928/Free_Aung_San_Suu_Kyi/apps/ka/ct/contactus.asp?c=jhKPIXPCIoE&b=5380275&ICID=I0908A02&tr=y&auid=5207238